Episode 14: Flush Parenting and Educational Norms Down the Toilet with Screen Cares

Jennie (00:02):

This is Screen Cares. I'm Jennie

Sarah (00:05):

And I'm Sarah. And we welcome you to our place to connect beyond the screen

Jennie (00:10):

And watch better, together.

Speaker 3 (00:18):

Sarah, what Screen Cares are you bringing us this week? I am really excited to talk about your movie

Sarah (00:25):

Before I answer your question. I actually wanna do something kind of unconventional by reading a short poem to kind of set the mood

Sarah (00:34):

Out of the night that covers me, 

Black is the pit from pole to pole. 

I think whatever gods may be 

For my unconquerable soul. 

In the fell clutch of circumstance, 

I have not winced nor cried aloud. 

Under the bludgeonings of chance

My head is bloody, but unbowed. 

Beyond this place of wrath and tears 

Looms but the Horror of the shared, 

And yet the menace of the years 

Finds and shall find me unafraid. 

It matters not how strait the gate, 

How charged with punishments the scroll

I am the master of my fate. 

I am the captain of my soul.

and that is Invictus by William Ernest Henley.

Jennie (01:14):

Wow. Wow. That was very powerful. I just kind of like letting that poem wash over me was pretty, pretty intense.

Sarah (01:22):

It's an intense poem, right? When I was watching our movie, which is captain fantastic for the first time I kept thinking about this poem and it's actually one of my favorites. And I feel like we've heard this line a million times. The, I am the master of my fate. I am the captain of my soul either in speeches. Like I know Winston Churchill had a line from this in, in one of his speeches. And of course, Nelson Mandela it's been, has referenced tons and tons in literature like Oscar Wilde, C.S .Lewis and films like Casablanca. And obviously the movie Invictus. 

And maybe if you haven't seen a reference to this poem in any of those places, I'm sure you've seen it on like a mass produced farmhouse style canvas that has those big black block letters in someone's house or on some overly earnest person's back as a tattoo. But it has staying power, even though this was published in, I think the late 18 hundreds, and here in 2022, we’re still talking about it and still thinking of it.

Sarah (02:27):

And I think that's what really made me think about our movie here on Screen Cares today. That is just this constant presence of thinking about our own mortality of suffering and, and sort of calming ourselves. So the idea that we have some control, even in instances, which are terrifying in which we have no control, it's just motivating and it's inspiring. And I'm hoping that while the poem kind of speaks to the turmoil, that the main character of Captain Fantastic struggles with it probably was actually a bit beneath his philosophy. <laugh> just judging by some of the philosophers that he talked about a lot. 

I've just been dying to talk to you about this movie. Since I know that both of us have made some really unconventional choices and it just feels so, so fitting. 

Captain Fantastic is a movie that came out in 2016, according to the IMDB, in the forest of the Pacific Northwest, a father devoted to raising his six kids with a rigorous physical and intellectual education is forced to leave his paradise and enter the world challenging his idea of what it means to be a parent.

Sarah (03:48):

The MPAA rated it as R, I do want to just touch briefly on some impossible triggers. There is unfortunately a suicide in this film and there's some continual references to mental health challenges. 

I think though the MPAA rated it as our probably because of nudity and language. I mean, according to Captain Fantastic himself, it's just a penis. Every man has one. He says like all animals of the earth or something to that nature, the nudity is not really sexual nature. It's just him in all of his nudity. 

And then just because my kids would find this really shocking, it does start with a graphic killing of an animal for the purpose of, of meat in the context of hunting. I feel like the rating system is probably all well and good. I mean, or is it, I don't know. I feel like a lot of times there's a lot of just policing of our delicate sensibilities, but because it's, so I think inadequate in some ways, Jennie and I feel like a rating system created to guide our fantastic viewers, not into categories of like appropriate versus not appropriate, but instead of possible, avenues of connection is maybe more helpful.

Sarah (05:15):

And so to that end, we've created our Screen Shares rating system. Jennie, do you wanna explain what that is?

Jennie (05:23):

Yeah, definitely. This movie is definitely a good one to kind of counter that MPAA rating versus who you should connect with. I love how you said that. So the different options for screen shares is our Buddy Screen, where you would watch this with a friend. Work Screen where you could watch it with colleagues, a Family Screen, a movie where you could watch with your extended family. Little Screens would be movies that you could watch with kids. Love Screen are movies that you would share with a significant other and a Solo Screen would be movies that would be great to watch by yourself for self-reflection. So Sarah, I am very interested to know what would you give this movie, Captain Fantastic for a Screen Shares rating.

Sarah (06:04):

This was the hardest one for me to just sort of assign one rating to I struggled because so many of the things that were referenced in this movie are things that you and I talk about a lot together. And so, number one, I would give this movie a resounding Buddy Screen because you know, whether you're a parent or not, I think so much of our great friendships are built in having real conversations about important things. And this movie definitely does this. So it really inspires some great conversations, but Jennie don't hate me. 

I wanted to make up a category really fast. I kind of felt like we should also give this a Co-Parent Screen because I don't know if necessarily, like you need to watch it with a significant other, unless you're a parent with that person. What I'm getting to is that what feeds my kind of hippie-leaning soul is getting to bounce ideas about homeschooling and life with good friends like you, and about how to parent my kids with, with my husband. So yeah, I'm thinking primarily Buddy Screen. And if we wanted to fake in and have a fake category, I would say, Co-Parent Screen. What about you?

Jennie (07:23):

I really agree with that in a really big way. In fact, based on kind of what you had shared with me about your experience watching this movie for the first time I chose to wait until my kids were in bed and I watched it with my husband on purpose, because I felt like I wanted to share this viewing experience with someone who, like you said, who I co-parent with. And so my Screen Shares Rating would be similar to yours. Yeah. 

It was going to be Love slash Partner Screen. So I also kind of fudged towards that made up category because I think that you, you certainly could watch this with someone like on a date <laugh> I guess, but it would have to be a date where you felt comfortable talking about some pretty big life choices and how you wanted to live together, because there is definitely a romantic streak throughout this entire movie that is really a pleasure to watch because it isn't the romance of things, all being great, but it's the romance of loving someone no matter what, and honoring them and allowing them to be their best self and their truest self, but also being able to let go, if you need to my husband and I have been talking about this actually quite a bit since we watched it.

Jennie (08:40):

And it definitely gives you some questions like, well, what would you have done in this circumstance? What would you do with end of life things? And so with that being said, now that I'm thinking of the end of life aspect of this, um, we will have some spoilers in this discussion of Captain Fantastic. And so if you haven't watched it, there are some pieces in it that are actually kind of surprising that I don't want to ruin for any listeners. And so you might choose to pause here and come back after you've watched it. But I think that because as I think we'll get into, there's just so much to go into at this movie, you could easily listen to this episode, watch Captain Fantastic after and still have, you know, an unlimited number of things to still think about.

Sarah (09:23):

I'm kind of dying to hear about the conversations that you and your husband had as well, because it really is one of those movies. Like don't you have those sometimes when you're watching a movie and you're like, oh, I need to specifically talk about this movie with so, and so I felt like this was that movie that I like specifically wanted to talk about with you and hear about your take on it. Like, it just feels so fitting with this strange chapter in our like respective lives right now. I think you brought up a good point too, of just talking about some of the spoilers. And I wanted to give sort of a very brief kind of like overview of this movie for folks who are tuning in and listening. I have a feeling that not everybody has seen this movie. It certainly was like an indie favorite.

Sarah (10:11):

And it was a few years ago. I think it's kind of important for people to understand like what actually vaguely happened so that they'll have a context for why in the world are we talking about what we're talking about? The IMDB summary said, this is about Captain Fantastic. And that's not really his name in the movie. His name is Ben and introduced to him as this burly dude who is out there in the forest, with six children. And we see him teaching his kids in what many might feel is a very unconventional way. We see him teaching them how to hunt. We see them doing some crazy exercises and it made me think like, wow, that like, uh, little classes that I take my kids to are wholly insufficient. We see the kids circling around this campfire. And when you look at the ages of the kids, this is something that really struck me.

Sarah (11:05):

And I'm wondering if Jennie, it, it struck you too. But looking at the kids who were like six, eight reading, some super heavy literature, they were not reading Magic Treehouse. They were reading like major philosophical works and clearly able to talk about them with their siblings and with their dad. You see them playing instruments and being very self-sufficient. You see them handling weapons, not necessarily <laugh> in the context of fighting, but you know, tools, what kids used to do. 

And then all of a sudden you realize that something horrible has happened before you realize this you're like, is this just dad with these six kids what's going on? And Ben receives a phone call and he finds out that his wife and the mom of, of these six really fantastic children, was in some sort of facility where she was receiving treatment for mental health challenges.

Sarah (12:04):

We don't know exactly what I think there was mention of a diagnosis at some point, but we don't know exactly what has happened. And we find out that she has committed suicide. And so that sends the family on this very different journey than where they were at the beginning, instead of focusing on the schooling and on being independent and doing their own thing in the woods, they are suddenly tasked with trying to interact with their family, their extended family. 

So Ben's, wife's parents and Ben's sister and brother-in-law and their kids kind of in the wake of the things that at least in our culture happen after somebody has died, there's funerals and all of those post life kind of ceremonies that we do traditionally, we also see the very complicated family dynamics that Ben's wife's parents are blaming her for the death of his wife. And we see that they don't even really want him to come to the funeral. 

This sets off in motion, this whole sort of journey, both a literal journey and a sort of figurative journey where he goes with his kids and this bus named Frank this like blue powder, blue uh, bus, I

Jennie (13:26):

Think wasn't it named Steve? Was it

Sarah (13:27):

Steve? I thought it was Frank. I, I feel okay. All right. It was Steve. I'll go with that. <laugh> it was so

Jennie (13:33):

Named bus, but you did find out that it was something that like the, that the mom had like painted on the side of the bus. So whatever significance that is, whether it is Frank or Steve, we just don't know the actual literal road trip from, you know, the Pacific Northwest down to, I think it was New Mexico to attend the funeral that they've said that the dad would be arrested at, right. If he actually came,

Sarah (13:58):

We kind of realize how serious this is and how fraught these dynamics are going to be when he gets there. Don't have to get into all of that now, but I just kind of wanted to set up that kind of outline for people. So they understand here, we have this very unconventional family, what looks to be very successfully doing their own thing. The kids look happy, healthy, clearly operating at an intellectual level. 

Being able to think very critically about difficult topics at an age that might not be expected if they were to have attended maybe their neighborhood school. I'm pretty sure that if they had been attending their neighborhood school, they would not be reading the, the works that they were reading at age seven. 

For instance, then we get to that point where they're starting to have to have this very complicated push and pull that happens throughout the rest of the movie about what is appropriate for these kids or not. Before we get, get more into this, can you tell me about when you guys watched this movie,

Jennie (14:56):

I'm really grateful that you brought this movie to my attention. This is one of those movies that as I was watching it, I was just thinking like, wow, how have I not watched this Captain Fantastic, definitely checks a lot of the unconventional boxes that I enjoy watching. 

So, like you'd mentioned, there's kind of this intellectual rigor element for the kids. There's this nature element, which I'm very into spending time outside with my kids. I think there was definitely a, a decent amount of head nodding, like, yep. I think that's great. And I think I shocked my husband where early on, whenever the kids had been doing their like outdoor activities and rock climbing and singing music around the fire and the kind of beginning paradise realized moments in this movie, I was like, yeah, I could I'm on board with all of this so far. And he was like, really <laugh>

Jennie (15:46):

Um, cause I think the, the lack of electricity and um, basic modern amenities were kind of something that for him, he was like, okay, well, all right, crazy lady, which I think was a nice reason to watch it with someone else. 

But I also really did appreciate how the movie shows that just like with any parenting choice, whether you're choosing to let your kids rock climb or your choosing to let your kids ride the school bus, there's certain amount of risk that is accepted in parenting in order to allow your kids to have freedom. And so, as I was watching this, I was having a lot of questions for myself of what does protecting my kids mean to me and how would I handle these different scenarios and what would I would I not feel comfortable with? 

And so I also am wondering, I feel like we both watched this during similar seasons in life. I have eight and 10 year old kids. When did, um, you watch this for the first time and how did the context of which you watched captain fantastic the first time affect your connection to it?

Sarah (16:50):

When I first saw this movie, I saw it with my husband and we saw it right when it came out. This was when I was still attempting to get to see all the like indie movies when they came out. So my youngest was one and a half or so, and my oldest was either seven and a half or eight. 

We were always grappling with as, as we parents do with like the fate of our children. Not only that, but we are also grappling with figuring out who we wanted to be as people who live in the world. I guess it just really, it sounds so simple, but we were doing a lot of thinking about that at the time. 

But this movie sort of said in motion for us kind of as a family of really reevaluating continuously ever since we've seen this movie about that, that big question.

Sarah (17:42):

And I guess that's one thing I love about it. You and I are just such huge movie buffs and there's so, so many good movies out there and they, they all fulfill different roles or holes in our life. We talk a lot about movies that are fantastic for escapism. Some movies let us see like different people's perspectives in a way that we might never have thought about some, just tell really cool or important stories. If you really think about it, most movies never encourage a deeper level of thinking. You know, you might think about Thor's abs or how beautiful a costume is or how intricate a battle scene was, but you're not gonna be moved to soul searching with most movies that we all generally watch. 

Captain Fantastic is just that kind of movie. That challenged me to think so intensely. Eventually when I got up the guts to try to act in a way that felt truer to who I am and who I want to be and how I wanted to really cultivate my children's wellbeing in the way that I felt was right for them. And just to be a total dork about it, like it allowed me the chance to be the captain of my soul. And it made me want to keep looking for movies. 

That inspired me to think more that allowed me to escape. Although one of my favorite stupid movies is one with Gerard Butler. And we know that like his movies are not about thinking they're about explosions and like probably killing terrorists or something.

Jennie (19:19):

I think you're right. And I think actually going with the whole kind of captain analogy and from Invictus, I think that a lot of movies and we've talked about this in other episodes and these movies need to exist. They are definitely cruise ships on which you are a passenger enjoying the spectacle. You are just sailing along and nothing is asked of you, but to look at the pretty lights flashing. And I think that I completely agree with you, Captain Fantastic is, is not that movie because it doesn't leave you when you stop watching it. 

It definitely, I haven't watched it as long ago as you did. It's been a much more recent viewing, but I can already kind of imagine the questions I'm gonna have for myself after watching this. It opens you up in a way that I think some movie movies can, where if you're sailing along as a passenger of life, I I've heard people talk about the conveyor belt and you're not really questioning.

Jennie (20:11):

You're just kind of going along. And so when I was trying to think about like, after I watched it, like, what is this movie about? Like, why was it made? What is it telling us? So that, that led me to another question that this made me think about is how can you educate your kids to be through free thinkers and to be there full potential. If you have a very extreme ideology and also more broadly, I'm fascinated to know how this movie Captain Fantastic has shaped your own questioning and journey with how you educate and raise your own kids.

Sarah (20:47):

I mean, that's the ultimate question as a parent, right? How do we educate our kids? I mean, as soon as you find out that you're having a kid, you start thinking about childcare, especially if you work outside of the home, because that's the reality. You’ve got to find the way to keep your kid alive while you go to work. So you can pay the bills. And then you evaluate all the merits of this program versus that program. 

And you think that as your kid gets older, that those choices will become easier, but I can assure you having a freshman in high school that they become astronomically more difficult. And so like you're always faced with that question. My partner and I have made our own choices for our kids and they've changed. And sometimes that brings me a lot of shame because I think our society is all about “sticktoitiveness.”

Sarah (21:35):

Okay. Just make it work. You picked your choice. So now you have to deal with the consequences, suck it up and deal. I do think that “sticktoitiveness” hugely important. I don't believe in quitting a thing just on a whim, but I also don't believe in sticking with something that clearly isn't working and that will not change in a way that will allow it to work. 

We've educated our kids in lots and lots of ways. My oldest, he attended an extremely expensive private school. It was fantastic for him. We tried a charter school, he went to a public school and then he went to a magnet school and then he was homeschooled. 

And now here we are looking at freshman year of high school where we're looking again back at a magnet school opportunity. And that's just for that kid. <laugh> just because you think I've filled my one kid's educational needs.

Sarah (22:30):

That doesn't mean they're going to be the same for your other kid. If you, if you have more than one. And that's also been a challenge too, just because my kids are six years apart, which in the world of, you know, developmental psychology, that's absolutely world's art and they're different personalities. So just like all parents know what works for one kid probably won't work for your other kid. It just doesn't work that way. 

Even though we didn't realize it at the time, because we really have struggled with the like how can we pull our kid out from that opportunity to try this new thing? What if the new thing doesn't work? Why aren't we just staying with this one option and trying it longer? But again, even though we didn't realize we were doing it, we were pretty good at being unafraid to make a change.

Sarah (23:18):

If something wasn't working and I think very, very, very strongly that there's no sense in trying to force your kid to fit into some mold that won't change. And I think that while we definitely aren't perfect parents, we've been really good at that. And I think where we are right now, homeschooling my youngest and right now it's great. I I'm loving it. It's working really well for her. She's so happy. She's thriving socially, emotionally, academically. She's a thinker. 

When you homeschool, you have sort of this mobility in what you study that can change. I mean, sure. We plan out our curriculum at the beginning of the year. I mean, if you go to my office right now at, at our house, <laugh> I send you pictures like there's stacks of crap, everywhere curriculum, everywhere. There's books, everywhere. There's art supplies everywhere and that's okay. It's because I'm preparing for the year.

Sarah (24:16):

That's the kind of homeschooling family that we are. We try to plan out a year, but also I know that like if in the middle of the year she needs more focus on a particular subject. We can take the time so that she can master that subject. Or if she's super interested in something, we can throw away some other subject for a little bit and focus on that. And that's the beauty of it. 

I was really dying to talk to you about this, since I know that you're also homeschooling, there are some scenes in Captain Fantastic that are hilarious for those of us who either currently homeschool or who have homeschooled. What did you think about that awkward quizzing scene? When the two families were together at the brother-in-law and sister's house,

Jennie (25:03):

Just to kind of paint a picture for the listeners. If they're staying at the sister-in-law's house, he has his six kids and they're, you know, sleeping in their sleeping bags out on the lawn to be under the stars. And they're shocked that the rotisserie chicken that they're having for dinner wasn't killed by the mother herself as they kill and forge for all of their own food. 

And they have a very set lifestyle in, in kind of their own practices of anti-capitalist anti ownership, kind of extreme mindset. But of course they enter into this home where the expectations are totally different and I would say much more traditional. 

The kids attend school and the sister-in-law is telling Ben that the dad's character, these kids need to go to school. They need to be safe. They need to be in school. And you can tell that both of the mindsets of both are very, very fixed.

Jennie (26:00):

Like they, they both know how to protect and raise children, which I think as the viewer, you have the benefit of saying like, well, these are two very extreme point of views. And so he calls down the two cousins who I think they said are 13 and in high school as well and asks them, what are the Bill of Rights? 

And one of the kids hilariously the younger one says like, “it's like how much things cost”. And then the older kid is like, “I don't know, like government something.” And then he, Ben calls down his youngest child who is eight, who then recites the bill part of Bill of Rights. And that's he says, “no, no, don't just repeat it. Tell me what it means to you.” I mean, it is like this goals moment. I, I actually looked at my husband and I said, “Babe, I'm sorry. I'm not doing, doing better at teaching our kids, the Bill of Rights. I will do more” because it was like next level thinking. 

However, I also thought like this guy is being a little bit insufferable as much as I'm on team, you know, teach your own way, you know, reach your kids where they are and like teach tire level thinking. He also really gamed that question because if the mom had countered with what is internet, like how do you know if a website is safe to use that child would not have had an answer? And so I think he definitely had control in that situation of really making his point like, Hey, my kids know things and she definitely stepped back at that point. But even his own son, the oldest later in the movie in a very tense moment, yelled at the dad. We don't know anything that isn't in a book.

Jennie (27:30):

And that's, I think one of the biggest, um, knocks that people get in homeschooling is that, well, how are your kids going to socialize? How will they not be, you know, weirdos, hunting down and killing their own chickens, right? Not that I personally think there's anything weird about hunting down or killing your own chickens, but this is the narrative that like, you're going to have these kids who aren't able to operate in the quote unquote like normal world. And so I felt like the movie didn't ever operate in the half measure. 

So by the end, without ruining too much, they, they kind of tick back towards a more standard track, but not, not entirely, they're still being themselves, but I feel like the options don't necessarily have to be being completely in the wild or going to school <laugh>. But again, this movie can't be all things, but I think that what it does do is it allows a broad spectrum of, of people and people raising children to look at it and say, okay, where, where am I on this spectrum? 

And how am I asking those questions that will allow me to serve my family and my kids, the best that I can. And so that kind of leads me to my next question for you, Sarah, which is how does this movie mirror or parallel or kind of stimulate thought about living authentically for you?

Sarah (28:53):

One thing that really stood out to me about the movie was not just the thoughts about the school. Like Ben, I feel like our Western society, and here's my hippie-leanings, is too focused on possessions, capitalistic stuff, technology that like does and thinks for every, you know, thinks for us. I mean, for God's sakes, we don't even know phone numbers anymore, half the time, because we just are like, “oh, let me look at my contact list.” The idea of immediacy and not focused enough on thinking on human rights, um, being self-sufficient. 

There's a great scene. It was one of my favorite scenes in the movie and it was just a small moment, but Ben and my kids are in the bus, which I think is Steve and not Frank <laugh> as Jennie pointed out and they're driving down the freeway and they pass a mall and Ben makes a comment about how, you know, our society loves going to the shopping mall and laughing at that part of, of life that is lived, that they have abandoned.

Sarah (29:58):

I wish that we could live more like Ben and his family. But I also know that just like with the school stuff, I don't believe in such extremes. It made me think of a lot of things actually. So my father-in-law he's got acres and acres and acres of land in Northern California. He has built his own home. He doesn't have electricity, he does everything for himself. And I really respect that. I, I think it's fantastic.

 Especially just knowing that no matter what happens in the world, he will be able to survive. He knows how to do the things. He can wash his clothes, cook food, get food, stay safe and housed without needing to rely on anybody else. And I think that's pretty darn cool. 

And I realized at some point a couple years ago that we were living in this monstrosity, like I always call it this.

Sarah (30:57):

Um, I was talking to an old neighbor and she was like, “why do you call your old house a monstrosity?” I was like, “well, I just think that it was, it was like this monster beast that took over our life. “ It sort of sucked the life out of me. <laugh> in every way, shape or form. It was massive. It was fancy. I mean, it's got gross marble floors. It had crystal chandeliers. It was like something that was like, I'm sure right for somebody, but it just wasn't right for us. 

And so we sold the thing and then became renters of a house that was like half its size. And we got a lot of weird comments about that. That's something that happens in life that I've been trying to actually prepare my kids for in some ways that like, Hey, if you make an unconventional choice, just be so confident in your choice that even if somebody questions it, you can respond in a thoughtful way.

Sarah (31:54):

You don't have to be defensive and rude about why you made whatever choice, but you can just say like, Hey, like that was the choice. That was right. For me, it sounds like you've made choices that are right for you. Cool. And then you move on and that's what we kind of had to teach ourselves even as adults, you know, leading our families, if you want to even call it that because it was very strange to be in a, in a place in a home that really focused on the fanciness level of things. 

Even after we had left that house was a huge sigh of relief because whew. All right. So now this new house that we're renting and that's a whole different thing. Like if you rent versus the buy versus own your home, there are some sort of judgments about that from people from time to time, which I think is also kind of ridiculous and very antiquated thinking that, Ooh, you've only made it if you own your home. Well, cool. That's cool for some people and not cool for other people.

Jennie (32:50):

I completely agree with what you're saying too. And I think that's something I still struggle with myself and I think we've had a lot of offline conversations about these journeys we've been on that are pretty parallel where we also like moved and got the big, big, big, fancy house in the big fancy neighborhood. I mean it was thoughtful, but I think that it was really not driven, but kind of fed by, um, by, by like not really knowing what else you could do. And I think the nice thing about this movie is, and, and what it sounds like your, your family member did is it reminds you like, you do not have to choose this choice just because it's what most people are choosing. 

And so for me, it's definitely not about what is the right choice or the wrong choice on how to parent, how to live, what house to be in. It's more about just, I personally believe that just making sure you are making a choice instead of just being a passive bystander in your own life. I think that for me, as someone who has sold our, our big house, the, our, our version of your monstrosity

Jennie (34:00):

And we are selling a lot of our things and we're going to live in an RV until we can find a home that has the land and space. And the, I think the, I, I don't know if freedom was quite the right word, but just until we're able to find the home, that feels right for us.

Sarah (34:16):

I love that for you guys. I'm so excited to see where you guys continue. And I was thinking the other day about when we met and like, we were both living in houses, they were cute, little new England houses. And then we moved to giant houses in completely different states that were also yet very similar in lots of ways. And then we realized, Hey, well, that doesn't feel right for various reasons, some same and some slightly different. And then you make a new choice. 

I love that so much about you because I don't know that many other people in my life are so willing to just not only be at, in tune to the guts of something doesn't feel right. But also them saying like, okay, something doesn't feel right. I'm going to name it. And then I'm going to go do something different. I've been meaning to tell you this.

Sarah (35:12):

Cuz yesterday, Violet said, my daughter, she said, “Mom, do you know what the most offensive thing is?” And she's very like social activist, as you know, I wasn't sure what it was going to be about, but I thought it was going to be something about racism or something. But she was like, “the most offensive thing to me is when somebody says, I'm go with the flow”. And I was like, “why is that offensive?” And she's like, “because it just, somebody who's go with the flow. Sure. Maybe they get along with everybody, but they have zero opinions and they make no choices.” And she had such like, she was so upset about that. I don't know if somebody said that to her or what it was, but I think that really speaks to the heart of this movie is you need to make a choice, make your choice.

Sarah (36:03):

That feels right for you when you're doing that. And if you have kids and you're leading by this example of like saying, let me just challenge these things that other people are doing and not just do them because I also just, again, want to say, like, there were things about this movie that I had an issue with. 

Like, I don't think that it's great to be a****** to families that do things differently than you. I actually had a problem with Ben doing that Q and A session with his, with his nephews about the Bill of Rights. I thought ok great. You made a perfect point. It was very cinematic, but like how did you make those kids feel? You made your nephews feel probably pretty stupid. And did that make you feel good as an uncle, like, as a human, was that really what you thought that you should be doing?

Sarah (36:51):

And a lot of this stuff was such an indictment of like everything that is American and some I agree with and some, I, I don't think that we have to always be so extreme. And I think that's what he figured out at the end of the movie was that there is a balance between not just the conventional and the unconventional, but also listening to the needs of like individual family members and the needs of us as a family unit, my needs as a parent, because I'm a human, even though I'm a parent and my children and between, you know, homeschooling in the woods and going to a traditional school, wearing a uniform, like there's always a way to sort of marry different aspects of things when we listen to our needs. And then when we act on our needs, that is the definition of being authentic.

Jennie (37:44):

Absolutely. And I, and I do think that movies like this are kind of a good opportunity to stop and ask yourself, okay, where am I? Where am I here? And I think that it's, it's questioning and it's choices and it's opinions to Violet's point who is absolutely the captain of her life with that kind of mindset. That's she's, your kids are absolutely amazing. I definitely think that it makes it easier though. As like with Ben and his wife, they were together in this making these unconventional choices. It's a little easier to go against the flow and, but also a little easier to be closed to other input. Whenever you have, um, someone who, who, you know, is always agreeing with you. And so I think that by geographically isolating themselves, then also kind of mentally isolating themselves. They stopped exposing themselves the way that this movie exposes others to different ideas.

Jennie (38:33):

And so I think that as much as, as it's important to have a friend like you to help encourage me to be brave whenever I do feel like actually a different choice than what's common is right for me, inspiring braveness, but also bravery, but also questioning I think a good friend isn’t going to let you just go down a path without asking yourself questions, to make sure that you are honoring your authentic self and not running from something. 

And I think that that that is, is the key. It's making sure that these choices are being driven by authenticity and by feeding a more whole version of yourself as opposed to being driven by fear. And I think that he did the character in the end, got to that place, that middle ground. And I think that it's much easier to do whenever you open yourself up to looking at different ways of life.

Jennie (39:25):

And also like you said, respecting them, because I also struggled with some of the extreme, um, views and also the, like the upright, like kind of indoctrination of his kids. Like he realized he needed to actually let them truly find their own voice. And I just absolutely loved watching this movie for that reason, for, for the mental dialogue that I'm gonna have. But also for the dialogue that it's opened up with you and with my husband, that I can now reference these things, cuz some of them are pretty quirky and different, but um, I love being able to reference the joyful, funny, shocking moments of this movie

Sarah (40:03):

Movies like this, that spark, those conversations are the ones that again, we keep coming back to and I really just love getting to talk about movies with you. And I really was so dying to hear your take on this movie. And I feel like we'll have to have like another like offline conversation so that we can dig into it even more sometime that makes me really want to get, to give our, um, listeners some opportunities to spark some own fantastic conversations with their friends and family and loved ones. We have some screen sparks that hopefully will initiate some really great conversations for our listeners. And, um, Jennie, do you want to share some of them?

Jennie (40:44):

Yeah, absolutely. I think that this movie is, like you said a real thinking movie and I am so excited just like you to learn more about what questions and choices our listeners have, because again, like no right or wrong, just, you know, great to learn about what other people are thinking. 

The first question that you, that you came up with was: what unconventional choices have you made in your life to try to be the master of your fate or the captain of your soul? 

Another one was, do you think that the merits of society outweigh the issues? And I think that that means kind of the, the drawbacks that are highlighted in this movie or some other drawbacks that we just kind of all experience on a day to day basis. 

And then whether you're a parent or not, do you feel that that parenting should consider training for the real world or training children, children to reshape the world? 

Ooh, that's, that's a great question. Sarah, do you wanna kind of expound a little bit on what you meant by that?

Sarah (41:38):

I think that was sort of some of the heart of the question too. Um, it was like an insinuation there. It was sort of like an either or either you homeschool your kids and give them these great big ideas and give them the ability to think so deeply and critically about issues that are important and hopefully, you know, send them out and be able to take that knowledge and make some changes in the world about the things that aren't benefiting as many people as possible. 

Or do you think we should just say like, Hey, listen, our kids have to live in the real world and let's just put them out there. Let's make sure that they know all the things so that they can fit in so that they can deal with those things that are quote unquote conventional and be able to be like everybody in the sense of like, just fitting in which option do you think is best, I guess, cuz I really felt like that was sort of a unspoken question in the movie.

Jennie(42:34):

Right, right. Absolutely. Do you, yeah that, I think that's a really interesting thing. And then do you have to choose all or nothing? <laugh> right. Can it be a half measuare?

Jennie (42:43):

The question you had is this there's such a thing as too much change. This is a question where I think that there's people who think yes, no, there is a right. There is not a right or wrong answer. So this is a, an interesting one. And then the last two questions is in what era do you think that Ben would've been most successful and or accepted as a parent? Because this is a man who his wife had described. One of her letters that they're raising philosopher Kings. And I definitely could imagine in kind of an early colonial period, like he could have been raising a founding father. Right. But, um, skinning your own animals is not a skill that people place a high premium on these

Sarah (43:21):

Days. <laugh> can I just add one more question for our listeners? Do you have friends that would question your choices, big choices that you're making in such a way that leads you to do more thinking about it or do you prefer your friends that are like, rah, go, go do your choice without forcing you to ask yourself deeply about if it's really what you want to do like with you Jennie, like when we've had all these monstrous decisions, I feel like I can always depend on you to be like, “Sarah, is this really what you are? You trying to run from? Something like, what, what are you doing here?”

Jennie (43:57):

It's all about choices and questions. And I think that this movie that you brought us this week, Sarah, Captain Fantastic, as well as that wonderful poem at the beginning has given me so much to think about, you know, as far as Screen Sparks go and then also just, just different life sparks. 

Just questions about how we live in the world. And I'm so grateful for the power of this creative medium of movies to open up this conversation. And I'm excited to learn more about what our viewers think about this movie and what it sparks in them.

Sarah (44:31):

Thank you for letting us share our screens with you this week. We hope that you keep watching for the meaning behind the screen. Don't forget to like and subscribe to Screen Cares wherever you listen to your podcasts, check out our show notes for great info and to visit our website www.screencares.com or check out our social media pages for great resources.