Episode 5: *Extra Credit* Religion and Science: "Opposites" Attract

Weirdschooling Season 1 Episode 5

*Extra Credit* Religion and Science: “Opposites” Attract 

Originally Released September 20, 2023

Intro: <Original bright piano sea shanty music rising in the background with school bell sound.> 

Sarah: Welcome to Weirdschooling. I’m Sarah. 

Jennie: And I’m Jennie. We’re parents, friends, lifelong learners and self-proclaimed weirdos. 

Sarah: We’ve found that some of the best educational methods have emerged when we let go of conformity and explore the unconventional and unique 

Jennie: Because no one’s brain operates the same way and that’s exciting. And what works today may not work tomorrow, and we can adapt. 

Sarah: We’re all in this weird and wonderful world together.
Jennie: So let’s learn outside the box! <Original cheerful, organ and piano sea shanty music fading 

out in the background.> 

Jennie: On our Saltwater Studies episode with Christa Jewett you talked about how you accidentally swapped out cinnamon for cumin on your precious sweet daughter's cinnamon toast and the culinary havoc that that wreaked on your family What would be a pairing that you found out was actually way better than you expected? 

Sarah: Oh my gosh, there are so many good opposite attract situations that I can think of, but I'm super hungry because my lunch was so gross that I just had, so I'm thinking of the most sugary thing that I also had yesterday, um, which is hot chocolate with a crap ton of cayenne pepper in it and pepper flakes. It sounds so gross, but if you get the like cheap hot chocolate, it's extra sweet for some reason, and then you just dump a whole crap ton in there and it's so good. It's so good. So what's yours? 

Jennie: Oh my gosh. I would say that my pairing was a musical pairing. 

Sarah: Ooh. 

Jennie: I had a moment, like a music moment when I was listening to This American Life, and at the end of one of their episodes, they had this song by a band called AJJ that I heard it and like stopped everything and was like, what is this magic coming into my ear holes right now? And I found out that AJJ is a combination that I didn't know existed but that I loved as, which is folk punk music. So like folk or like bluegrass punk, those kind of things, where basically you're just, you know, maybe you've got a fiddle, but you've got an attitude about it. 

Sarah: (laughs) Okay, I am going to require that, Jennie, please put maybe some of your favorite, like one favorite song in the show notes so that everybody can actually enjoy this as well, cause I can't mail them my hot chocolate. But you can do that for them. 

Jennie: It seems like there are a lot of things in the world, easier combinations we've all heard of. Raspberry and chocolate, peanut butter and potato chips. You know, these things that are a little bit weird, but that they actually go together. Peanut butter and potato chips. You know, Sarah made a face at me, you know, like, you know, like an Elvis sandwich, right? Where you've got the peanut butter, bacon. 

Sarah: No, that sounds so gross. 

Jennie: Okay, fine. Well, okay. Well, you know what, to that point. Not every pairing is for everyone, but it rocks some people's boats. And so, today we're going to talk about a pairing that may sometimes seem like it could be in conflict, but it can be harmonious. 

Sarah: I'm excited to talk about the combo of religion and science. We’ve wanted to talk about this because last week we had Christa Jewett from Saltwater Studies on the show to talk about how she incorporates her deep Christian faith with marine biology education for kids and adults. I thought she did a really beautiful job of explaining how she was able to reconcile those two very different ideas in her own um personal life and then be able to incorporate that in a really great educational experience for people. 

This is a deep topic. There have been hundreds of years of debate about this. And so I'm going to kind of cover very, very basic broad strokes. And then because so much has been focused on Christian belief systems versus science, scientific methods. I'm also going to be focusing on the other religions. And Jennie's going to cover a very deep and different side of the religious versus science. And I'm really eager to hear it because, as many of you might know, Jennie is our in house historian. So, her stuff has a very specific, interesting, historical bent that I'm just dying to hear. 

Jennie: Sarah, whenever I read what you were going to be focusing on, the conflict between science and religion and the non-Western approach to this conflict, I just got really excited. I cannot wait to hear about what you learned. And part of Weirdschooling is me getting schooled, too, so lay some Weirdschooling on me. 

Sarah: When I started diving into it, I realized, I don't think I know what words are. I don't know anything. What is science? What is religion? I don't know. Anytime you have a debate or an argument, you need to understand what you're talking about. You need to understand the basics and the foundations. And this is such a heated topic. 

And I think it's because of the context, right? People's values, people's beliefs, people's things that they can see, hear, touch and dream of are also personal and real. So I wanted to rewind and understand why do we care about science and the purpose of science? In our society is simply to improve it through understanding of who we are as people, how we interact with our natural world and understanding of the natural world itself. That's pretty basic. That is a sort of like abbreviated version of lots of definitions and much longer things that I read and I will source all of this stuff. And then the purpose of religion is. Generally, and again, lots and lots of other different sources gave me this short definition. It's really just to give meaning and purpose to our life, reinforce social unity and stability. And that line was specifically from the University of Minnesota's sociology textbook. 

They're so different. Why are we trying to pit them against each other? I was thinking about arguments that I've had with people about religion or science. And what really struck me was the idea that a lot of times people think something so strongly, but they also aren't able to articulate why they feel that way. 

I'm always curious in people's whys. I don't need people to agree with me. I really want to understand what other people have to say and think and believe. This really interesting article that I read from The Atlantic talked about the idea of credence, which is the state in which people believe something so strongly, but they actually can't describe the thing they believe in. 

And this idea of credence is seen in religion, politics, and science. And there's sort of this belief without understanding. There's a faith in the testament of people who have the very same convictions. And again, there's lots and lots of examples, whether it's across politics, religion, or science. And that also struck me, it's like we're kind of applying the same red herrings to our arguments because we're all coming with our very strong ideas that we may not be able to articulate. 

So anyway, one other quick thing I wanted to say before I talk about the other religious perspectives on science is that scholars talked about a conflict thesis, and this is sort of an outdated approach at this point. The conflict thesis between religion and science states that they are at odds and have been so throughout history. 

There are a lot of anti and non-religious groups that still have this position, but most scientists and most modern scientific historians don't really hold that position anymore. I read lots and lots of arguments and lots of essays where scientists at elite universities in the U. S., they just simply don't believe that these two things are at odds. They don't believe that across history there's examples of these things being at odds. And that was really interesting to me because I think a lot of times we think, Okay, well. Science is old, religion is even older, so our understanding of the world through each of those different lenses can't work, it can't coordinate. 

There are a lot of scientists that are very well known who were Christian. Sir Isaac Newton believed at the time that gravity was what caused the planets to revolve. That's science. He used scientific things to get to that theory, but he believed it was by God's design that those things happened. And so that was, again, sort of mirroring what Christa was talking about last week. 

Jennie: I'm fascinated by the two definitions you had for, um, the purpose of science and the purpose of religion. And then this idea of credence and the conflict theory, like, all of these things are things I haven't thought about so explicitly. I think a lot of times they just kind of amorphously float around, and it's not until you give yourself an assignment of, go research the thing, that it comes up. 

But the two words that come, jump out at me that you've said several times is the idea of meaning being the purpose of religion, and understanding being the purpose of science. I'm just gonna put out there that if we take these principles and we de charge them from the kind of historical and political and social context, I think you can see that they are connected. They both can exist in isolation, but that they tend to be most fully realized when they exist together. 

Sarah: I love the words, “de charge.” I think that's a really important thing to highlight as we go through this conversation because I'm guessing that there might be some things that we talk about that hit you a certain way when you're listening to this episode, and that's okay. 

And that's because we care as human beings. We're passionate beings. We are interested. We're curious. We want to understand. We want things to have meaning. We want all of those things, but I think it's that unique human characteristic of the seeking that makes some of this feel so prickly and personal sometimes. That's okay. We're going to own that. We're going to dive into our prickly feelings and that's fine. 

Jennie: Let's get into the Eastern religions and their relationship to science. 

Sarah: I've been trying to think about the fact that there are lots of voices out there and lots of perspectives and just because something is readily available to me doesn't mean it's always the majority. And so I was taking that approach in our dive into this religion versus science question. I decided, okay, let me actually get the stats. So there are shockingly 10, 000 distinct religions in the world. 10, 000. That is a lot. That is so many. 

But out of those 10, 000, there are four major religions that account for 77 percent of our population, those being Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism. And 92 percent of the world follows one of those four religions or identifies as being non-religious. In terms of Christianity, that's 2. 4 billion people, 33 percent of our population globally. There have been lots and lots of discussions about whether there is a correlation between religion and science. And yes, there is a correlation. And I know you're going to talk about this, so I won't get into that too much. 

There was a really interesting study done by the Pew Foundation, and they were also aware that, hey, Christianity is not the only faith out there. There's been tons of discussion. Let's look at three other religions, Islam, Hindu, and Buddhism. And this was not the biggest study ever. It was a deep dive interview with, I think, roughly a hundred people and the interviews took about an hour. They were conducted in the interviewee's native language, which I also thought was important. Interviewing standards were also held, which is something that is also important in science. It wasn't just like, Hey, Bob, can I talk to you for a minute?” (laughs) 

Jennie: Like, somebody wasn't man on the street, just like, “Religion, science, what do you think?” (laughs) 

Sarah: A lot of the questions had to do with, do you think there is a connection between your religion and science? And if you do, where do you think that sort of meeting point is? And what do you think the major issues are between the two? 

Interestingly, the Muslims said that Islam and science are compatible. There might be some friction areas around evolution. We hear about that a lot, that instead of the idea of creation, there's the theory of evolution and those two don't necessarily easily go well together. 

15 to 16 percent of the world's population are Hindu and they viewed science and religion as a Venn diagram. They feel like there's a lot of intersection. When I was. It's looking into what is it that actually you're talking about. They were saying, for instance, that Hindus are responsible for understanding about the antimicrobial properties of copper, health benefits of turmeric, and lots 

and lots of other things. Interestingly, they also said that the theory of evolution is already encompassed in their religious teachings, which was fascinating to me because that would be smack dab in the center of their Venn diagram. And that's not something that I was anticipating when thinking about evolution and religion, regardless of what religion it was. 

And then the last religion that I looked at is seven to eight percent of our population, looked at Buddhists and their ideas about science and religion, and they feel like they do not have a Venn diagram. They have two very separate and distinct spheres of knowledge, but they didn't think that they were at war with each other and then use their religious understanding to have guidance. or meaning about the things that they were observing. 

The one area which I thought was very fascinating that all three of these religions did not love was the idea of biotechnology. All members of these three groups in this study were very concerned with that. And biotechnology meaning stuff like gene editing. Super creeped out by that. I'm creeped out by that. There's so many different ethical concerns with this that I don't think exist when you're looking at a rock and wondering what it is. 

Jennie: I think it gets to that idea that Christa Jewett had mentioned, this idea of design. And with a lot of these religions, if there's a divine hand involved in design, and then you edit that design, it's, that could be a sticky point. Yeah, for sure. 

Sarah: Oh totally. Yeah. The Muslim interviewees said that cloning would tamper with the power of God. Hindus and Buddhists said that these developments would interfere with karma or reincarnation. Gosh, this is so, it's just so fascinating to me to, again, understand that as we're talking about the idea of religion and science living in a world together, we have to think about the whole world. And it's not just Christian. It's not just the ones I mentioned. Like I said, there's 10, 000 religions out there. I think if we had unlimited time, we would love to give the respect and look into all of these that we could. Here we are. It's just a toe dip. We're using that a lot lately, but I think this is this is appropriate here. 

Jennie: Well, it's a toe dip. And I can guarantee you probably have listeners from these different faith backgrounds who maybe have a slightly different belief. And part of why we're talking about this idea of science. And religion is that it is such a hot button issue in education. 

Sarah: Absolutely. And I think at Weird Schooling, we really want to lean into the things that feel uncomfortable. I think that's something that's really important because being weird is uncomfortable already. 

If we just allow ourselves to feel just comfortable in our little bubbles of weirdness and not actually take the step to really evaluate our own belief systems and how those belief systems impact the way that we educate our kids, the way that we educate our students, or the way that we educate ourselves as humans. 

We're doing ourselves a disservice. And frankly, I think the weirdest thing that we really can do is to be rebels of our education. And that is to fight against the sort of comfortable bubble. Just fight against it. 

Jennie: I want to get a little personal and a little bit vulnerable here with you and with listeners. The heart of why I was so engaged with our conversation with Saltwater Studies is that I have felt weird on both sides. of this situation. I grew up in the Midwest, what I call “the shining buckle of the Bible Belt,” and there was a lot of times whenever I would feel not religious enough. And then there have been moments whenever I've been homeschooling and meeting different people and being in different groups where I was like, “Oh, well, maybe I'm too religious.” 

I have felt as a person, as a homeschooling family, as a person seeking understanding of the world and of my own belief systems, that that feeling of needing to commit to all this, all that, all science, all religion, those labels are the things that make me prickle. 

Sarah: Thank you for sharing that and being vulnerable about that because I think faith background is something that's on those lists of like things that are weird to share with people. Finances, health, faith background, all that kind of stuff that's on the list. And it's on the list because people get real prickly. I mean, again, like, we're just going to keep using that word. Since you were vulnerable, I'll be vulnerable. My dad was a Presbyterian minister, and so got religion there. I was a pastor's kid. 

But at the same time, I was always in that weird space, too, because my family was politically not always aligned with the ideas of the church. And so there was a lot of that, like, boundary crossing, and that's hard, but here at Weirdschooling, we're not about shortcuts. We don't need labels here because we're interested in going deep into things such as history and religion. And I need you to put your history teacher hat on and help me understand what does that mean for our country and where we are today. 

Jennie: We know that people's view of the relationship between science and religion has changed over time and depending on geographic locations. So, what were the beliefs of the Founding Fathers and specifically of Benjamin Franklin? 

Deism is both a philosophical and a religious belief that emerged during the Age of Enlightenment in the 17th and 18th century. Deists believed that God created the universe like a clockmaker, wound it up and let it go. That's something you hear a lot when you hear a description of deism, “the great clockmaker.” God got it started and he was like, “you got it guys.” And then a lot of their texts they'll talk about the idea of free will being a fundamental principle to how deism works, so that we get to do our own research. And they felt that it was their moral, religious, and philosophical obligation, many deists, to be scientists. 

And so that's part of what fueled Benjamin Franklin's desire to do all these experiments that we've heard fabled over time in varying degrees of truthiness. It was his motivator. It was that he felt like he owed it to the world, to God, because he was religious, to discover. When I heard that description of deism, I was like, okay, I can get on board with that. That feels like someone accepting what they don't know and using what they believe as motivation to know more. 

Sarah: That is literally what Christa said last week. She felt like she had a responsibility to educate and to educate with real scientific information because of her beliefs. 

Jennie: I remember one quote from her that she said, “I don't need to extrapolate. I don't need to make things up. I don't need to go beyond the truth that exists.” And when she said that, it actually is what brought me to this place where I wanted to cycle in this concept of deism and then grounded 

in the Founding Fathers. Let's circle back that I, as someone who likes to study history, goes to, and that is the primary sources. 

Benjamin Franklin, self-described deist in his very own biography. I will link this to you, but he talks about in his autobiography that he published that from the time he was 15, he started reading different texts from all around the world. He grew up in a very traditional 18th century religious household. But as he learned more and more from Enlightenment thinkers like Voltaire and other people who believed in seeking knowledge through experience, he realized that it was a little more nuanced. And in the end, he said, “In short, I soon became a thorough deist.” So... I don't think we can deny he was a deist, because he said he was a deist. 

Sarah: Hashtag primary source. (laughs) 

Jennie: (laughs) Primary source, exactly. And then he also wrote what was described as a deist pamphlet in 1725 in London called A Dissertation on Liberty and Necessity, Pleasure and Pain. I will link to it in our show notes. You can read through it. It's really interesting because the same way that Christa wove together her observable knowledge about the marine life and biology, he wove together his understanding of scripture and his observations about humanity. 

And about the world that we live in. And it's a fascinating read. He is a famous person for a reason. He knew what he was about when it came to writing. So go read it for yourself. Figure out what he was saying. We go on then to Ethan Allen, not the furniture, but the revolutionary war leader of the Green Mountain Boys, where he wrote Reason, the Only Oracle of Man. 

Which. Okay. Talk about that. That's a pretty clear thing, saying like, “I want reason to drive our decision making.” And that's all being done in the context of these men still being deeply Christian, as culturally and religiously. And last, one of my favorite, Thomas Paine, the author of Common Sense, wrote a treatise Age of Reason in 1795 in which he argued against specific biblical stories being used to propagate cruelty in favor of self-directed goodness and the pursuit of knowledge. 

So if you want to see what were people thinking in the 1700's about the idea of reason, which would be kind of their shorthand for science, honestly, at that time, reason and philosophy and religion, and how it shaped their perspectives on what the country we live in today, the country where we're able to have this conversation, we are able to have disagreement. I'm glad we can have this conversation because these guys had an open mind. 

Sarah: We hear a lot of things about founding fathers. And especially as it relates to politics, frankly, and what were their ideas about the direction of our country? I really appreciate all the research that you did. It actually kind of made me think about something that I read in one of the Pew studies. 

But when interviewees were asked if governments should have any investment in this whole conversation of religion versus science, most of them thought that our governments should be invested in these conversations in science specifically, because that again goes back to when I looked at the definitions of what is science, what's the purpose, all of these different interviewees who represented all of these different faiths really thought that, understanding our natural world and improving humanity and society, that's really, really important. And they were able to put aside their religious belief system if they needed to for the pursuit of science. 

Jennie: One of the last points I want to make about the founding fathers is this. We can debate what they said, what their intentions were, but ultimately, we can look at their actions and we can look at the documents they did give us, but they left us with the First Amendment. 

It was the very first amendment to the Constitution when they realized, “whoopsies, we needed a Bill of Rights.” 

Sarah: That's how it went, “whoopsies. “ (laughs) 

Jennie: (laughs) They said, they were like, “oh, guys, we forgot to list their rights, explicitly.” That was real audio from the Constitutional Convention. (laughs) You guys just got to hear it. Um, but their actions are undeniable. They tried to create public forums for people to debate, to argue, to disagree, to have different points of views. They built that into the structure of the Congress, that we are able to have different opinions and the language of the First Amendment, which I'll read is Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof or abridging the freedom of speech or the press or the right of people peaceably to 

assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. 

When I look at some of the Founding Fathers who describe themselves as deists, I think part of that is because they wanted to create space for us to meet each other and find middle ground. And they wanted us to make sure that that right was protected. They all came to a place of agreeing that we need a place to live, to talk. We need a common ground. We need to protect that common ground. And I think that that's the connection for me. I see with education. Education is a place for common ground. 

We promised you some specific action steps that you could take as an educator. And so we would be remiss if we did not do that. First off, I'll just observe that through this process of conversation, I think we're modeling one of the first ones, and that is to learn about the different faiths of the students you're teaching or the different non faiths. A resource I found from Melody Young, the co leader of the Primary and Secondary Interfaith Educators cohort, and a great article that she wrote which I'll link to. 

One of the things she also recommends is learning about the background of your students. So I say first and foremost, learn who you're teaching. Learn who your peers are as educators, whether they're other homeschooling parents or other teachers, just so you understand what is this educational and personal faith landscape that you're in. 

So step one. Learn about others. What does that look like? It looks like listening more than asking questions. So I think that it means paying attention when someone tells you what they did that weekend. If they just said that they went to church, you now know that they go to church on weekends or at least at that weekend. 

It's creating a safe space where you create an opportunity for kids to share what their faith experiences are like or what their belief experiences are like and what they're like in their house. So that's the second point, which is provide opportunities for healthy discourse among the students, among the community that you're in.And again, this resource that I'll share gives specific details on how to do that. 

Also provide diverse perspectives. And so that could be as simple as what a lot of people do, where you take the holiday season as an opportunity to talk about different religious celebrations around the world. And so a lot of times calendar events can be a good reminder. Say, hey, let's check in with ourselves. Let's check in with people around the world, like we have in this podcast today, and let's check in through history, where we're at. And it can add a lot of really rich texture to your classroom. 

Sarah: I would suggest to be really careful about the materials, though, that you use, because I've seen lots of really incredibly thoughtful materials that are written by the person of whom that culture is represented, and I would always encourage that you go that route first. Find the person who is Asian to have the book for AAPI month. Do that. Don't do the book written by the white dude from Milwaukee, written about how great it is to be Asian. Not, not a good book. 

Jennie: But you know what? You can read his book if it's about what it's like to be a white dude from Milwaukee. Yeah. 

Sarah: Of course. On White Dude Day, do that. (laughs) 

Jennie: (laughs) Yes. But I think that you get to a really, really important point and it's what both of us did here. Actually, you went deep into the actual conversational research studies with actual people from different faiths and I found the primary sources from the historical people. So basically primary source it for whatever it is. And you're going to get a truer perspective of it. And so, um, learn about the people in your community. Create an opportunity for discourse. Provide varying perspectives. 

And then another piece that I think is really interesting that Melanie Young in this article references is the idea of actually creating. It means maybe creating principles or operating norms for the way you, the people that you're teaching, operate. And it could be something as simple as we'll use primary sources in this classroom. When we don't know, we'll ask. And whenever someone says something to us that we might feel is offensive, we will be honest and we will have a conversation. 

And I think it's being thoughtful about those things in the same way the Founding Fathers were, in the same way that Christa was, that you name. the observable facts, and then you create a system to operate by. She created two separate classes because she realized that, uh, the secular and the religious based classes were something that was needed for her community. 

And I think that it's a really good example of how you can set up systems, policies, and standards for yourself and others that make people feel safe and that make people feel seen. And also, uh, I think that if at the beginning you say, “Hey, I don't know everything.” I've had it where you're in a group and someone says something as a general statement of fact that I realized they and a lot of other people think they all believe, but that I don't necessarily and It feels really hard to be that person who feels like the minority, the weirdo. 

When you feel like your voice is being shut down by accident, even by the, you know, louder majority, that can be tough. And so I think that I try to be mindful of that as an educator and just as a person to know that I need to create the space to admit, “Hey, I might make mistakes, but I welcome everyone to have a discourse and share with me that maybe we don't all agree.” And just to acknowledge that understanding and meeting are dynamic, as you discussed before, but they're both important parts of learning. 

Sarah: One more follow up to that is just the idea that we are all responsible as community members. So if you were to be in a group like Jennie just described, and then there's that awkward moment where everybody is just standing in a half circle, like, chuckling awkwardly and looking at the ground because somebody said something weird or potentially offensive or just exclusive. 

Why don't you be that person and just say, “Hey, like, I don't know if everybody here actually believes what you just said. What does everybody believe?” That is one last thing that I think when you're talking about power dynamics that we as members don't realize that we have the ability to insert ourselves and to feel a little weird, feel a little awkward, and just say like, hey, let's be good humans. I don't know. What do you think? Are you okay? That seemed like you looked a little upset. Let's talk about it. 

Jennie: Oh, you know, so what have we learned in this extra credit, Sarah? I felt like I learned a lot today about how different faiths view the intersection or non-intersection of faith and science. And that that is worth understanding. That first tip is learn more about what the different faiths believe. And then look at smaller, specific historical examples too, because it depends on the time. It depends on the place. I'm leaving this conversation, hopefully just going into my interactions with other learners and other people just from a place of listening and a place of forgiveness. If someone maybe offends or prickles me, just realizing that they're coming from somewhere and that the best thing I can do is try to learn more. 

Sarah: What I took from this conversation is just how, frankly, complex it is. And even though I spent hours preparing for this episode, read countless things, There are still countless things I didn't read, and there are countless things that I didn't understand, and approaching any subject with the perspective that I don't know everything. There's a gray area to be lived in will only allow for more meaningful conversations, more opportunities for connection. No matter what you're doing in your life, there's always room for connection and we don't have to be competitive about our belief systems. 

Outro: <Original bright, organ and piano sea shanty music rising in the background.> 

Sarah: Weirdschooling is a My Kind of Weird Productions podcast and is co-created by hosts Sarah Woolverton-Mohler and Jennie Ziverk Carr with music by Brooks Milgate. 

Jennie: You, your ideas and feedback MATTER, so like, subscribe and leave a review! Share your weirdschooling experiences or challenges on our social media channels at instagram, facebook, or our website at www.weirdschooling.com. 

Sarah: We’re here for you– so feel free to join our engaging Weirdschooling Community Facebook group for inclusive, open-hearted idea sharing and camaraderie. 

Jennie: You’re dismissed to go be the weirdest brick in the wall of this wonderful world!
<Original bright, organ and piano sea shanty music fading in the background with school bell sound.>