Episode 2: Why Nature Immersion? A Discussion with Guest Judy Scoville, Co-Founder of Nature Explorers

Weirdschooling

Season 1 Episode 2: Why Nature Immersion? A Discussion with Guest Judy Scoville, Co-Founder of Nature Explorers

Originally Released August 30, 2023

Intro: <Original bright piano sea shanty music rising in the background with school bell sound.> 

Sarah: Welcome to Weirdschooling. I’m Sarah.

Jennie: And I’m Jennie. We’re parents, friends, lifelong learners and self-proclaimed weirdos.

Sarah: We’ve found that some of the best educational methods have emerged when we let go of conformity and explore the unconventional and unique

Jennie: Because no one’s brain operates the same way and that’s exciting. And what works today may not work tomorrow, and we can adapt.

Sarah: We’re all in this weird and wonderful world together.

Jennie:  So let’s learn outside the box! <Original cheerful, organ and piano sea shanty music fading out in the background.>

Jennie: Can you describe a time you went on a truly memorable hike? 

Judy: I live near downtown Nashville, we have this, big open field park backing up to the train tracks. I'd walked there before some, but I hadn't gone along the tree line and I was looking for a specific tree called mimosa, I wanted to make some tea out of the mimosa flowers. I did not find mimosa, but what always happens when I go out on hikes is I do find something and I found so many wild cherry trees just growing all along. The fence line there and different ages and different, probably different subspecies as well. And it always shocks me, even though it shouldn't, that there is so much all around us all the time. 

Jennie: We just found out we have a mimosa in our backyard, and so that's, I'm gonna have to maybe, uh, find some recipes for this tea from you.

Judy: It's known as the Tree of Happiness. 

Jennie: I have a tree of happiness in my backyard. I'm so excited. Wow. My day is better.

Sarah: (laughter) All right. Jennie, when was your memorable hike? 

Jennie: My most memorable hike, I mean, most memorable hike, unfortunately was memorable because of a somewhat embarrassing and, difficult experience. I was dating my now-husband and we went hiking into the Grand Canyon and we hike down one of the trails about maybe halfway even. We stopped and we're attacked by squirrels at one point because he didn't follow directions and he fed them and then I had a serious bout of like tummy troubles, and I think if you've ever been to the Grand Canyon, you know that like maybe a mile and a half back up the trail is the, Compostable restroom. I'm like, I have to get back up this. I'm dating my husband at this time, so I'm still trying to be like cute. And we start hiking back up the trail. And again, if you've ever hiked in the Grand Canyon or on any cliffs, they're very narrow trails. And I can see the restroom. I've made it almost there. And a caravan of donkeys came. 

Sarah: No, it didn't. What? (laughs)

Jennie: I swear, I swear a caravan of donkeys came and I had to stand against the cliff wall and it felt like maybe 12,000 donkeys pass in front of me. And all the well-meaning, moms and grandmothers of the group stop their donkey to say, are you okay? And I'm like, “yes, go.” (laughter) And so it was really difficult experience, but you know what? My husband still married me, not withstanding, we took my kids back to the Grand Canyon last year on a cross country road trip we took in our RV.  And, they loved hearing that story and laughing about it and, seeing the donkeys and everything themselves. So it kind of has come full circle for me on that hike. (laughter)

Sarah: Oh my gosh. Oh, I love that. So when we lived in Colorado, that's just what you do is hike. You enjoy the beautiful area that you're just lucky to live in. and we were not in the best of shape, but we were trying to hike all the fourteeners, which are very, very tall peaks, you know, 14,000 feet up, some harder than others. Some you can drive to, some you can't. And we went with a friend who was in much better shape than we were.

And my oldest, was actually little at the time and he only had, babysitting until 6:00 PM And so we had a very specific time window that we had to get this hike done. We did, Mount Quandary, which is, a beautiful hike, so we were just, plugging away, panting, you know, totally trying really hard as all the fit people were running past us to look like we were not dying. (laughter) Um, we got maybe four fifths of the way there. Could see the peak. And then there were actually mountain goats again, like some weird hoofed creatures just foiling our thing. Instead of just passing by and I have videos of this, they decided to come on either side of us. And I've never been afraid of heights, but it wasn't until that moment when one of them stumbled a little bit and some of the rocks started going down that I realized, oh my God, we could die.

We actually could die. Then I start hyperventilating I was thinking, “hmm, where would a helicopter land if they had to rescue me?” Because clearly, I'm not going anywhere. Like I sat down, I was like, I can't go. I can't go. And then Alex was like, well we now, because of your, break that you needed to take, we can't finish the hike even though we were so close. So we basically ran down the thing, . Very memorable hike I keep, it is one of those things on my list that I need to do before I die because it really bothers me that we were so close and just didn't finish it. 

Jennie: Wow. So our hikes for this icebreaker took us to the tops of mountains snow covered to the sweltering squirrel infested bottom of the Grand Canyon, and then back to the middle of a just pleasant neighborhood stroll, full of herbal knowledge and happy trees. (laughter) Like, that's just amazing. I think one thing I, I wanna do in this conversation is just embrace all of that, that is nature, and also introduce our guest today and share a little bit about what we're going to do in this episode of Weirdschooling. 

Sarah: We are so grateful and just so excited that we have Judy Scoville with us from Nashville Nature Explorers, and I know her personally from getting to see my kiddo really just flourish in your program. But I'm so excited to hear more about your story because this is not a program like any other. And you, Judy, are not like a teacher just like any other. And I think that our listeners are just really being treated to something special today to get to meet this very special human and hear a little bit more about why nature immersion is an important aspect to bring to both children and adults and everyone on that developmental spectrum. So Judy, tell us a little bit about yourself and why you're here. 

Judy: Wow. I am, So honored that you invited me to be on, Weirdschooling, as one of your first guests. I am a Nashville native. I grew up here in Nashville, Tennessee where I am, and I played in the creeks and the rivers and ran through the forests as a young child, and I want to bring that to children and adults, in Nashville and wider, if possible.

Jennie: Was there a specific experience that led you to want to co-found Nashville Nature Explorers? 

Judy: Everything in my life is sort of led up to this. My experience as a young child being out in the woods to reading the little House books as a child and seeing for the first time how our connection with what is around us sustains us. That inspired me, to apply and I was luckily accepted to an outdoor education boarding school. That really set me on a path towards wanting to deepen my connection and understanding of the earth and nature and how humans have an impact on it. 

My love of nature from those things I want to bring to my students as well as the importance of connection and knowing where things come from and how nature is not just something that's outside of us, it's something that's within us as well, and we're always a part of it.

Sarah: Oh, I love that so much. Can you share a little bit more about that boarding school experience, because it does sound like it really made a humongous impact for you. 

Judy: Yes. So I went to, a semester school called the Outdoor Academy. It's in Pisca National Forest in North Carolina. So it's near the Appalachian Trail and it's a very small community of students who are in high school. About 30 to somewhere between 25 and 35 students. With their teachers living in the woods, cooking all their own meals, heating with firewood, and going on backpacking trips all while doing all of your academic work that you would be doing at your, the school that you matriculate from. And getting to create an intentional community where we had, responsibilities and reliance on each other was critical to me wanting to help others create community. 

Jennie: I wanna circle back too to something you'd said that “nature isn't just something outside of you, it's in you.” How did that mindset and the connections that you built at that outdoor boarding school affect your other academics? 

Judy: Confession time this semester before I went to the outdoor Academy, I received the lowest grade I've ever gotten in a class in French. I got a “D” in French. And that was, embarrassing and shameful for me. I did not get that from anybody else other than myself. But I was in a class of one with one other student at the outdoor academy and I got a ton of one-on-one or one-on two time with this teacher through my French classes the whole semester. And I went from making a “D” that semester to making an “A” in the class when I returned back “B+” or an “A-“and I actually ended up majoring in French in college and living in France. So, it really turned around my academics. And helped me learn how to ask for help and see adults as people on a path to helping me rather than these, there's some authority figures.

Jennie: Do you think that the experience of being outside and having that kind of, choice community that you described, was that part of the help? 

Judy: Yes. It builds trust knowing that you need to rely on somebody for help that you, you know, need somebody to help top the vegetables so you can cook them. And they also see you make mistakes and they aren't hard on you for it. It just turns people into humans, you know, just individuals.

Sarah: I'd love to, to understand sort of how you made that leap from being, a learner yourself to feeling perhaps driven to educate and maybe give that meaningful experience to kids.

Judy: I planned on, studying, comparative religion, in, graduate school. But I fell in love with teaching, while taking a break after college just to reorient myself, study for the GREs, et cetera. I worked at my best friend's school that her mother started, which is now the, Lyndon Waldorf School. I started working there and I just loved being with the kids. I hadn't worked with children for a couple of years, but I had from the time I was 11 or 12, I was a camp counselor and babysitter, and I was just really good at it. I will say that it's one, it's one of my gifts. I just continued to take more classes on educating children on how to, meet their needs, the different philosophies on guidance and discipline and support, and actually after 10 years of teaching, I decided to take a break.

For a year I had just gone straight out, out of college into that path, and I wanted to make sure it was a real intentional choice. And after that year, I knew that, yeah I needed to be with kids teaching. One of my thoughts was just because you're good at something doesn't mean that you have to be doing it or need to be doing it. We're supposed to have numerous careers in our lives, and I just knew that my leading was to go back and get kids outside and continue to get them outside. 

Sarah: I'm lucky to know lots of wonderful educators who have, been happy to stick in their neighborhood school or, in whatever format, that they teach. So where did you then make the switch from teaching at the school where it sounds like you were very connected to both personally and professionally to then want to do something very different?

Judy: Let me just tell you, I have been so blessed to work with incredible people who I've learned from and I, of course we say that, stealing is the best teaching. So I've gotten to steal from a lot of incredible teachers who've been in the field for decades longer than I. And, one of my assistants wanted to bring more outside time to our students and she encouraged me. So we started having a picnic outside one day a week in addition to our hour outside of play every morning. I started to notice that it met the students better as well as myself. And so I continued that for about three or four years until we were basically an all outside program. The school was needing to make some shifts to, financially support other parts of the school, and we needed them to be inside more.  And I found it was so successful for the kids, so great for me and my personal, neurodiversity, that I wanted to start Nature Explorers to get to continue that. 

Jennie: We found that ourselves as well, having a kind of pretty neurodivergent household. And I know I've read research about the positive impact of, outdoor education, just being outside on neurodivergence and anxiety as well as just like other learning outcomes. How do you see that in a classroom? 

Judy: I remember having, one student who really thrived outside, he was fully in his body, feet, flat on the ground, just comfortable in his skin. And the moment we crossed that threshold, he started literally physically spinning and I could, see the energy shift in him and, the physical discomfort that he was experiencing. 

Sarah: If there's any researchers out there, they can, send us an email with the links to their academic journal and their research about this. Because I know from talking to so many people, all of these anecdotal stories of, these very extreme examples in some cases of how being in nature, really , almost a healing for students and opening their doors to be able to then, input of knowledge and of other skills, in a way that just didn't seem possible inside.

Jennie: If you were to give a little treasure of advice to someone who maybe is a classroom teacher or a homeschool family or a parent, or just someone who worked with children in any way, but they've never felt comfortable to take that step out that door and to try, learning outside, what would be maybe a first step?

Judy: This is some twofold advice. One is to start having in your week, one time where your class goes outside, even for a short, 10, 15 minutes. That's not, recess, where, you take a moment to be outside and to have a moment of quiet and to use, one of the senses, whether it's looking or listening, or feeling the ground, or smelling, leaves from a certain tree. Just engaging those senses that help us connect with the world and just doing it once a week and then watch how that affects the students when they're back inside, see if they're re-centered, see if they are more present and more engaged in what goes on next. It's also a really great tool if that works for your classroom to when things are heightened stressed, heavy to go back out there and have your like, 15-minute sensory experience. Because it calms the nervous system.

And with groupthink or whatever you want to call it, it's contagious in both directions, whether it's being, misaligned with self or being in tune. And it can help bring everybody back to comfort. And observing children, they are. 110% into exploring whatever it is. It's incredible to watch a nine-year-old have a toddler's excitement at seeing the world around them, and it captures that childlike awe. That is honestly within all of us, no matter what our age. 

Sarah: Speaking to the age thing, another thing that is really special about, the way that you have been so thoughtful about, nature education in our community is that you have included adults so can you talk about why have you even bothered to try to, get adults as excited as kids? 

Judy: I chose to also educate adults because I want to meet the people who also love being a nature nerd like me, or help inspire them. So it's, a little bit selfish, because I love doing it. I love connecting with people who love to do what I do. honestly, I think it's actually even more important for adults to have nature immersion than it is for children. It's part of the culture of childhood to play outside. It's not that for adults and we need it just as much as they do. 

Jennie: Could you speak a little bit more to that idea of the culture of childhood?

Judy: It is a regular practice to have recess in the school system. And then if a child is able to go to summer camps, they're often outside as well. So it's in the American culture As part of what children are allowed to do still, I know it's gotten more contained, in our modern day. You don't see as many like groups of kids like in the movie now and then just biking around and, off all day by themselves. I know some families choose to do that, but it's not part of the wider culture

Sarah: I was talking to somebody about your program and they said, well, isn't it dangerous if they're just out there when it's rainy or cold? can you speak to sort of the American, or maybe it's just the modern level of, safety, what are your thoughts on that?

Judy: That distinction that we've created in the American culture between the human and the outside world is a much wider gap than in other places that I've been to and traveled to. In a place like Sweden where I went to a playground, there was grass everywhere structures that you could climb on. There was even in the ground, a trampoline. So, as you walked, it became a trampoline, and then it became grass again, grass to trampoline, grass, and it was really bouncing. You could bounce so high. That level of trust in adults and children to know what is safe for them and what is not, is not present in the American culture. It's maybe not completely absent, but there is a big lack of trust in people knowing what is good for them. 

Sarah: So, it kind of seems like in your program, not only are you focused on that nature immersion, but also allowing kids to learn their own limits and test their own limits in a very safe way. But having that freedom seems really key to the whole success of, of the program.

Judy: One of the ways that I know that we are being successful with a student is when they are starting to trust themselves more. They are more connected with themselves. They're learning to have more successful connections with peers and to have a successful relationship with nature. So a child that may be afraid to try climbing a tree or climbing up a log, we don't help them do those things, but they test it out and there is a certain level of risk that is acceptable. If you know how your body moves and what your limits are, then you can keep your body safe. 

Jennie: What would be a good entry activity that maybe you do early on in a series of classes? If someone does have a child who's uncomfortable with dirt?

Judy: If the student is uncomfortable with the dirt, the bugs, the, rocks on the ground, or feeling the grass against their legs , exposure and experience is the best thing. And also teaching them how to work with it. It gets modeled by their peers who are comfortable with it. It gets modeled by the teachers, but also giving them a tool because maybe exposure is not the right thing for them. They could, if they don't like the feeling of grass on their legs, they can put on their rain pants or they can remember to wear pants next time. If it's bugs, they can bring a chair that's off of the ground to sit on, so we give them tools and we also expose them to those sensations. Now, for the parents who are uncomfortable, they're made more comfortable by seeing their kids become comfortable.

Also outside isn't for everybody at all times. I understand that. We have people who are say I am just not an outside person. Thank you so much for taking my child who is and working with them. That is not in my wheelhouse. You know, outsource what you can, 

Jennie: And you know what, maybe it's just a different kind of outdoors that they're into. Maybe for some people it's a pool patio, you know? Exactly. It's still outside. That's okay. It's just a different thing. 

Judy: Absolutely. There are so many, conversations now about cross-cultural, experience of being outside and in nature. Such as like my neighbors being out in nature is them sitting on their front porch in the evening and that's great. All the ways to connect with nature are okay. Just get outside. 

Jennie: I love that call to action so much: “Just get outside.” I love that. And I think that that really, it's having that permission within the kind of discussion and the framework of Weirdschooling. That, you know, maybe you felt weird because you loved being muddy, maybe you feel weird because ugh, I just don't wanna be outside. And I like how you described scaffolding, the comfort level to build that trust within yourself and kind of using that in internal nature within us and bringing it out into the world. I think that there's so much that's applicable to every class and just everyday life. 

Sarah: Okay, so here's the fun question. If there were no restraints from time or money or other resources, what would you do with Nature Explorers? 

Judy: Oh, one of my dreams is to have land that we leave untouched, a place where everyone is welcome to come and they can interact with the natural world in a way that is comfortable for them, including foraging because it is not allowed on public land. I want Nature Explorer is to have places where everybody can come to forage and and feel safe to do so, so that they know that they won't get weird looks, that they won't get a ticket. Just a place where everyone can feel welcome to come on to the land and be with it. 

Jennie: When asked, what would you do if you had an unlimited budget you're building out that internal humanity and the nature and solving the problem of this like hyper structured society, so that is a magical idea. 

Judy: Nature Explorers is about connection. Connection to self, connection to others, and connection to nature. And I believe that that is going to help us heal the trauma that our country is founded on. If we repair our relationship with this land that we're on, I think that we can have a really successful country.

Jennie: So at Weirdschooling every week we have a little weird of the week and Sarah and I share something that maybe we learned that was weird or we did that was weird and it can be in your life, the news, something you've learned, anything. And so I'm excited Judy to know what is your weird of the week, with your experience with Nature Explorers or just in your life? 

Judy: So my Weird of the Week happened right in my backyard. I have a huge hackberry tree that straddles my neighbor's yard in my yard. And I'll see the berries fall down on the ground, in the autumn usually. But I noticed that there were some on the ground yesterday. While I was looking at it, I thought that sure does look pretty dark, for the berries this time of year. And I picked it up and I squished it and out of it came what looked like grape seeds, which have a distinct shape. And I put it in my mouth because I'm weird and I taste wild things. Also quite educated on this stuff. So, so you knew it wasn't gonna kill you. I knew it was not gonna kill me. 

I'm, a little wild, I'm a little weird. I will try things that I'm not a hundred percent sure what they are. I'm not saying anybody else should do that. I tasted it and it was so delicious. I look up into the tree.

It is filled with wild grape bunches just hanging down like 50-75 of these bunches of grapes that are 25 feet up there. I've been living here for two and a half years and I didn't realize that the grapevines were all up in that tree as well. That's amazing. I know nature is all around us and I get surprised every day, even when this is my job. 

Jennie: Oh, I love that. It's always something new. That's amazing. What a good tip. And also disclaimer, Weirdschooling is not responsible for anything you put in your mouth after this episode. (laughter)

Judy: Absolutely. Nor is Nature Explorers. (laughter)

Jennie: Right. Well Sarah, what's your Weird of the Week?

Sarah: Oh, I feel really bad to even bring this up, but my daughter, after more than a year of saving her money and researching and educating herself, has finally saved up enough money to purchase an axolotl and the tank and everything that went in with it, 'cause that was the deal, was, you know, pets are expensive. So you first must be educated and understand if you want to do this, and also purchase all of the things. This isn't a, you buy the $40 accidental lotto and we buy the $300 tank. No, that's not what the deal was. So she finally brought it home and the person tried to tell us that using these, pellets were gonna be great. That they liked the pellets. My daughter's, axolotl does not like those. So we went back to go purchase some worms because these are carnivorous animals. They do not eat salad. The first worms that we got were too big. Despite us having to do some butchering, we purchased a cutting board that was gonna be separate for the worms.

And, that didn't work. So we went back to the store again and, we got a different person, at the counter to help us this time. And he said, well, let me show you, first of all, you have to ask us for the secret thin ones. We have fat ones and we have thin ones. And we usually give people the fat ones 'cause that's what people want. But you just ask us for the thin ones. And so we took the skinnier worms and then, we did the tip of, I saw your pantomime (laughing). He suggested that we snip them. And so, every day now my daughter, who is very gentle hearted, she has cried every single time she's had to feed the axolotl which is daily. She snips each skinny worm, into about six pieces while she's saying, “I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. You're going to feed my pet. I'm very sorry.” I, she literally is saying that. And then she puts them in. And here, that whole story is weird enough, but the part that, I don't know where I missed this in my learning as a person, but what's gross is that any of the segments that are not eaten immediately continue to wriggle for about almost a day and a half.

So, I don't know, are they alive? Are they not? And I've been just too grossed out to even look it up, like, are they still alive? Or why are they moving? But there it is. That is my weird of the week, and maybe this was just my gross of the week, but it's been the all-encompassing situation in the house.

Jennie: So gross. Dude, the theme of eating things this week, whether it be axons or grapes, this is intense. And now, I guess this segues nicely into my weird of the week, which is we moved from a much more manicured neighborhood. into an acreage community where we have acreage and the house we got has a creek behind it. And one of the big things we were excited about is it had a tree house like kind of tucked into the woods. And it's lovely and I had visions of my children learning in it and having all sorts of amazing memories, except I didn't realize that the former residents of that tree house had not been evicted prior to our moving in. And those residents are wasps, like really, really aggressive wasps. 

And so yesterday, we had our pest control guy come, and so after I had had a conversation with this really nice guy who came out about saving our spider that we have on our back porch. We have a big like Charlotte's web style, garden spider up on our porch with these two egg sacks.

And so I was like, “I need you to stay well away from that.” He's like, “absolutely, I get it.” He was happy to leave it alone. I pointed back into the woods and I was like, it's a bummer about all these wasps. Some of them are even coming up under our porch now, and he's like, well, I can go out there and take a look at 'em for you and try to spray for them and you know, knock 'em out.

I have never felt worse about asking someone to do something in my entire life. This guy goes out there for free to help out and try to get rid of this wasp and infestation, and I see him go up the little ladder. And he's spraying the whole time, like a flame thrower in an action movie. And he pushes open the lid, like the trap door into it, and I see him almost fall off the ladder.

He's like flailing. He sprays it and he comes back up and he's like, panting. He's like, I think, I think the thing's in there just leave them. We lost, was kind of the takeaway. And then you could tell he felt like a marked man because this is the thing that I learned. He said, wasps, whenever they attack, they will emit like a powder, a substance on you that will mark you. They will remember you.

Sarah: What? Ew, that’s scary. They remember like they, that's so, so smart. That is so smart. 

Jennie: But it's terrifying. I'm not quite sure what we're gonna do. And so, I don't know when we're going to get into the tree house, but hopefully soon.

Sarah: Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. I feel like, your approach is just a gift and you are a gift, and I'm so glad that we got to know you a little bit better and understand how, the context of your journey created such, a love of nature and of people, and of bringing that to people of all ages. I'm really, really hoping that our listeners will, check out Nashville Nature Explorers. And are there specific classes that you wanted to talk about that are coming up? 

Judy: Yes. So over the academic semester we teach homeschoolers, in elementary and middle school as well as we have an outdoor preschool program. On the weekends we do teach adult classes and, bring in master teachers as well, such as my friend Alan, who is going to be leading a foraging identification plant walk at the end of this month, we're gonna have a plant dye workshop, we're teaching an herbal folk medicine class, an herbal extractions class, and, soap making along with basket weaving. 

Jennie: Well, nevermind me, I'm just looking up flights to Nashville so I can take all of those classes. This is all absolutely amazing. And so could you tell listeners if they wanted to learn more about, Nashville Nature Explorers, where can they find you online? We'll also post all of it to our social media and they can connect with you and learn about all the cool things you're doing.

Judy: Our website is nashvillenatureexplorers.com. We are on Instagram, Nashville_Nature_Explorers. My colleague has curated a beautiful, Instagram page and we're also on Facebook as well.

Outro: <Original bright, organ and piano sea shanty music rising in the background.>

Sarah: Weirdschooling is a My Kind of Weird Productions podcast and is co-created by hosts Sarah Woolverton-Mohler and Jennie Ziverk Carr with music by Brooks Milgate.

Jennie: You, your ideas and feedback MATTER, so like, subscribe and leave a review! Share your weirdschooling experiences or challenges on our social media channels at instagram, facebook, or our website at www.weirdschooling.com.

Sarah: We’re here for you– so feel free to join our engaging Weirdschooling Community Facebook group for inclusive, open-hearted idea sharing and camaraderie. 

Jennie: You’re dismissed to go be the weirdest brick in the wall of this wonderful world! 

<Original bright, organ and piano sea shanty music fading in the background with school bell sound.>